Rules update

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Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:10 am

Minor rules update just so everyone knows. Changed portion is highlighted in blue.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Verence on Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:08 am

Wootz Ore may only be bid on for the purpose of completing Salvage Body Armor materials.
This rule could use some clarification. What if I have no salvage shell and not a single piece of armor but want to complete a Salvage body one day? Can I bid? What if I do have a shell, but no armor. Can I bid then? Some guidelines on what qualifies someone to bid on Wootz ore would be nice.
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Re: Rules update

Post  Blacky on Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:10 am

Isn't "Only for Salvage body pieces" a little bit too exclusive? Not everyone does salvage. I find it more than fair that everyone gets to spend their well earned points on a money drop, after all, it's them who decide what to do with their points.

On the other hand, Dynamis is the only place that contains Wootz Ore, narrowly working together with Salvage can be a very good thing, but do collect some names of people that are working on a Body piece. This just seems a tad too random.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:48 pm

First I'd like to begin by discussing the motivations that went into this rule change.

1) It's been asked about before.

Someone (I can't remember who, I'm sure they'll volunteer their name upon reading this post) has discussed the idea of the implementation of this rule with me months ago. At the time I didn't even consider it. I wasn't fully aware how much Wootz was worth, and the drops seemed to isolated to really consider myself with at the time.

2) Recent Bastok Drops

Recently some Wootz auto-distributed to the same person twice during a Bastok run. That kinda got me wondering about the fairness of random Wootz distribution.

3) Better understanding of how difficult it is to obtain a Salvage Body Piece

I was one of the people banking on the price of Imperial Wootz Ingots dropping after the most recent patch. That was another one of my motivations about ignoring the problem. I didn't think it was worth passing a rule to address the situation if it was going to be corrected soon. But the Imperial Wootz dropping from Einherjar has not put a dent at all in the price, which led me to want to make some changes that will deal with the issue since that has not.



I understand Blacky's point, but to be honest with you, I'm incredibly wary of allowing people to spend points for items which may be sold for cash. I think it's a dangerous thing to condone, and certainly not the intent of this rule. The point of this rule was to assist members in accomplishing things which may otherwise be difficult for them. Isn't that why we're doing Dynamis?

And yes, this rule only directly benefits members that do Salvage, and not every member of our Linkshell is doing Salvage; but it actually DOES benefit every member by removing excess points from the system and allowing other members to compete better against those who choose to spend their points on Wootz for the purpose of upgrading a Salvage Body Armor. If there's a concern about people getting a steal on Imperial Wootz Ingots point-wise, we can always implement a minimum point value as well.

This is also good because it creates another way for members to utilize Dynamis; this helps keep our linkshell together. There are a lot of members who have almost nothing left to gain from this shell relic-wise, if we don't do something to broaden our base for them we're going to lose people (which means those only in it for relic will receive less assistance in obtaining it).

I agree with Verence's comments about the rule needing to be fleshed out a little bit more, but I still think wootz bidding should only be open to those who're currently working towards a Body Piece (i.e. doing Salvage Regularly to obtain it). And if we decide we don't like that rule, I'll probably support banking of Wootz instead. I'm simply not comfortable providing a mechanism for people to make money with bidding.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Blacky on Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:05 am

I was the one who got 2 Wootz Ores drop. ^^;

That aside, thanks for replying, i understand. Although i do agree that it needs to be if a tad more detailed, if to avoid any misunderstandings or abusing.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:02 am

some thought for the crafters would be nice too Laughing This ingredient only drops in Dyna as we all know already, and since the price has jumped from being 3k~5k to now 150~200k a piece, its no longer one i can just buy off the ah to skill up on knowing I lose shit loads if i break a synth on imp. wootz ingot or if I make the cheaper wootz ingots which don't sell at all.

Picking up some auto-dropped / donated ores from ls members was one of the few ways I could make this synth without breaking my pocket, so I don't see this as a fair thing IMO.

Simply put you're "selling" ores to ls members via points system but restricting it to ppl that do salvage only, to save them gil in upgrading the body piece but not helping the rest of us.

Also it would be interesting to see how many ppl actually are doing a salvage body piece, since I only know of a few myself I can't see how those few using points is helping everyone else by clearing their points etc..

Just my thoughts but yeah IMO a more universal rule for these would be more /welcomed.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Sphinx on Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:24 am

Of course if the crafters only use them to skill up, and the upgraders do nothing with the ore alone, perhaps some brand of arrangement can be reached between the crafter and upgrader?
This way the crafter wouldn't even have to pay for the rest of the mats, all they'd need to do is hope for a skillup. Assuming the upgrader wants to gamble their ore to skillup of course, but that's an issue left between the two.

Beyond that, I don't see the rule as anything that aggravating. Personally I have no points to pay for ore and probly won't since I've still to get a lot of the relic I need but Ayvaen does present some very worthwhile points.
As for the exclusion of some items to some people over dynamis runs? This already happens, in the form of giving preference in drops to those who actually meet the job prerequisite - which in this case isn't that different. Give the item to those who have the most use for it, and are willing to pay the points.
Alternatively, you could make it so lotting <i>priority</i> was given to salvage gear upgraders, and if none were willing to pay points for them they'd go to freebid where anyone could?

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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:45 am

What you said is right and that is the problem, would you be willing to gamble your ore +2x khroma ores (which are 250k ish a piece) for someone to skill up with and possibly losing them all? My bet is 90% of ppl wont take that gamble, therefor the end result is the same.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:46 pm

I'm thinking that the skillup argument is a non-issue because I really doubt anyone would actually win any bids on them for the purpose of skilling-up. If bid, they will have a minimum value and be a rather hot item for anyone who wants them. I imagine no ore will go for less than 3 points, and most will go for 5+. It seems a little...not worth it, for a crafter to spend 5 points on an item for for a chance of a skillup, unless they're also hoping to succeed in the synth and sell the ore for money, which is against the spirit of what we're going for here.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Sphinx on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:30 pm

Personally, the main reason I'd endorse this rule of ore bidding is the fact that it gives people something to shoot for. There are a lot of members that yet stay true to the shell even while having nothing they actually want from dynamis left. Or very little of, anyway.
But they still keep coming back, assisting those of us who still have a need for dynamis, sometimes even at the expense of their own and generally with little to gain but fun time with friends.

Not to undermine the value of spending quality time with friends in a gore, battle, stress and tarutaru death-filled environment that dynamis is, but I digress.

This would give these people something to go for. Something to buy with their points, and gain even where they aren't looking for relic.
I do understand the point made, that the smiths could also find a good use for the ore. And agree whole-heartedly in doubt that any but the best of friends would gamble their ores in a chance for another to get a smithing skillup. But again as it was said, to spend points on ore might end up being counterproductive in the end.
I enjoy this rule as an opportunity for people who have nothing to spend points on, to have something to spend points on. As for who can bid on it, I can't really argue with because I'm sure many people would find a decent use for the ore. As for who would spend points on it, now that's another matter.

All that said; I don't know if I can find a good argument as to who should be able to bid.
But I do think the idea of giving people the option to do so is a good one.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:12 am

by Ayvaen on Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:46 pm

I'm thinking that the skillup argument is a non-issue because I really doubt anyone would actually win any bids on them for the purpose of skilling-up. If bid, they will have a minimum value and be a rather hot item for anyone who wants them. I imagine no ore will go for less than 3 points, and most will go for 5+. It seems a little...not worth it, for a crafter to spend 5 points on an item for for a chance of a skillup, unless they're also hoping to succeed in the synth and sell the ore for money, which is against the spirit of what we're going for here.

bounce Again I just like to say imp. wootz ingot IS NOT the only product of this ore, regular wootz ingots can be made which was my (and alot of other crafters) choice of skill up synth. Now whereas before the ore was only 3~5k u would only lose 5~10k per synth, Now since the prices have sky rocketed to 150~200k I for one would very well be willing to spend points on this rather than lose 200k while skilling up on a npc/huge loss synth. How you can say its only worth it for salvage upgraders to spend points to save themselves 150~200k and not a crafter trying to hit the last few lvls is beyond me tbh.. I make my point in the sense that I am looking to skill up not to make gil, as wootz ingots has always been purely a skill up item with loss attached to it, just right now the amount u lose if buying the ore is just too much to even consider, whereas bidding points on the ore makes it an available synth again while keeping the loss down to 5~10k.

I hope you can see where I am coming from, its not about making gil its about trying to achieve something I've been doing for years now.

Also I would like to ask how you intend to keep track of the those ppl that will take these ores & see what they do with them. Considering the rest of the materials required for a salvage body piece runs into many mils of gil & can take many months to complete, how do you intend to make sure its used for the purpose you are instating this rule for and not just stored up then later decided to be sold for whatever reason.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:45 pm

There is that synth. If they're used for that synth, I have no problem whatsoever with a smith bidding on them.

And we're going to keep track of people who purchase ores incase they give up on their salvage piece and want to return the ores for a point refund.

Also the requirements would probably be something like, "Currently working towards a Salvage Body", meaning either having the salvage drops and working on the gil side, or actively doing salvage for them.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Verence on Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:43 pm

Hey, look what I found!

ResultsHQValueProfit
Imperial Wootz Ingot0700,00067,900
Wootz Ingot030,000-106,932
Adaman Sabatons041,500-22,315
Gem Sabatons1500,000436,185
Bahadur0322,50057,167
Culverin028,000-27,866
Culverin +112,000,0001,944,134
Adaman Gauntlets039,000-14,982
Gem Gauntlets15,500,0005,446,018
Practically anything else you choose to skill up on will lose you less money than Wootz Ingots. There are Imperial Wootz of course, which is precisely what Salvage upgraders need. Whether your motivation is skillups or profit, the fact remains that by synthers bidding on this, they're making a profit off their LS points. People using it for Salvage would gain, but not monetarily - They'd do so in a R/EX fashion, which is what points are used for on every other front. Relic.

Given this, I do think it might be possible to reach a compromise between synthers and salvagers, but how it would work I'm not sure. Perhaps synthers may bid, then immediately after that bid is settled, salvagers may bid their finished product. Points would only be deducted upon successful synth + delivery, of course. There's potential for abuse here, so the finished ingots might need to be sent to a sack for distribution. Or maybe that's too complex. Either way, if it has to go one way or another, I'm on the side of the R/EX non-monetary benefit.
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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:33 am

Ayv: Sounds good Ayv but hard to implement! Very Happy the only reason I asked was I've crafted imp wootz for a few ppl that looked at the stats of the salvage body pieces and start saving the materials, only later to fully realise just how much work & gil its going to cost them to complete it. By then they decided to give up & bank whatever items they had stored up, still turning in a profit.

This is where its going to be tricky for you guys as the ores are most likely going to be crafted very soon after they are won just to save on inv space. In the event someone doesnt want to continue the upgrade, s/he cant return the ore or would have to purchase one to return it i.e they're still gonna make / lose gil. On the other hand someone can win a cheap ore through bidding and decide its not worth the return & better to just make some gil on it later. This is just a few examples but I'm sure you know there is huge potential for abuse on this rule & its going to be hard to control/track alot of things.

I disagree with Verenace on that there is more potential for the salvage peeps to make profit on this, simply due to the long and time consuming nature of the upgrade. Crafters on the other hand, should they win a bid for ore, can make their synth infront of you, during or after a run. Hell you can take the wootz ingot if you're worried about them making a profit, since the only cost occured to them would be the 3~4k for crystal+other matts. This item is purely a skill up synth, always has been.

On a whole, I think its a pretty complex rule to try and implement & pretty hard to control alot of the things that may happen with the ores, whether its a crafter like me or a salvage upgrader taking these ores.

As you already wrote somewhere, I can only see the best & safest way to treat these is to bank them for future runs. No hassle, doesnt exclude others in the ls & benefits everyone.

Verence: next time plz do some proper research before you copy paste BS off ffxiah Idea Sorry if that sounds rude but you posting a copy/paste of a table that isnt even correct or even half reflect the true costs, profit/loss, how much or how often they sell for = rude to me.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Verence on Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:17 pm

Fist3 wrote:Verence: next time plz do some proper research before you copy paste BS off ffxiah Idea Sorry if that sounds rude but you posting a copy/paste of a table that isnt even correct or even half reflect the true costs, profit/loss, how much or how often they sell for = rude to me.
Check FFXIAH.com if you don't believe me, I think you'll find the prices quite accurate (Or at least, they were accurate as of the time of the post, I can't account for market fluctuations). Synthing standard Wootz ingots is throwing away money.

I understand that you may be upset due to the fact that Imperial Wootz costs more to synth, but that it's loss instead of gain is pretty undeniable in the current market - The facts are there for anyone who cares to look. This means more personal loss to the crafter if the ingot is appropriated and perhaps I ought to have addressed this. If things go according to what I outlined above, then the person who won the ingot bid should pay for the materials upon receiving the ingot. Then the crafter loses nothing and the salvager pays for what they would've had to anyway.

Either way, I don't really appreciate having BS called; Anyone who doubts is welcome to check the AH themselves.
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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:56 pm

Actually no the prices aren't accurate at all - which is why I called it BS it in the first place.

I don't have the time or the patience to go through each synth so I'll give one as an example:

Bahadur:

* 1 x Jacaranda Lumber = 95k
* 3 x Gold Ingot = 13k each 39k total
* 4 x Adaman Ingot = 75k each 300k

Total cost = 435k

Average Sale price over last 2 months = 350k

Profit/loss = -85k

Your table shows value 322k profit 57k

Bullshit? I think so Idea

Now getting back to logic, would I or any crafter *skill up* with something that has ingredient costs of 400k+? or in the case of imperial wootz ingots 650k+ (or lets say 500k for just the khroma ores if he won a bid on the wootz ore during a dyna run) considering there *are* gonna be breaks?

Answer = NO (unless you are Jangula or a gil buyer or have so much gil u can toss mils away with no care)

If a synther wins wootz ore which of the two synths is he most likely to make? Lets break it down:

Imp. Wootz ingots:

Khroma Ore = 250k each 500k total
Wootz Ore = 0 - since getting it via bidding

Total cost = 500k

Sale price = 700k

Profit if successful = 200k

Potential loss if synth fails = 500k

Good profit? Yes. Gonna make it for skilling up? No. Why? Too much risk

Wootz ingot:

Wootz Ore = 0 - since getting it via bidding
Steel Ingot = 4k
Rosewood Lumber = 2k

Total cost = 6k

Sale price = 30k (sells once - maybe twice a month if your lucky and keep it up on ah all the time)

Profit if successful = 24k

Potential loss if synth fails = 6k

Cheapest synth to skill up with? Yes. Losses accceptable if synths break? Yes.

I hope I don't have to explain any further....

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Re: Rules update

Post  Verence on Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:05 pm

If you scroll down to the bottom of http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=19151&sid=27 , you can see where I got my figures. I did the math on my own and, as it turns out, the example pretty inaccurate. The site doesn't seem to calculate the Adaman x4 properly... The figures I came up with were 422k outlay (Can be knocked down to 401k by synthing your own ingots) for 380k median return (If we're counting over the past few months and not most recent sales prices, as you stated above). This is a 42k (Or 21k with a few extra steps) loss, which is still less than half the loss on a Wootz ingot assuming all materials are purchased. Granted, the most recent sale price is 300k so, being frugal, it's a loss of 101k.

This compared with Wootz Ingots which are a loss of 98k assuming purchased materials, a difference of 3k. Bahadur sell more often too (0.380 sold/day vs 0.096 sold/day). I think the main thrust of our disagreement seems to be that you approach it from a crafter's personal-expenditure viewpoint, and count the wootz ore as 0 cost since it would be 'free'. Whatever it cost to purchase, in my view, it's still a 120k value item. It just seems like a bit of a waste to me to burn such a valuable item on the chance of a skillup. Granted, once purchased, what one does with an item is their business - Someone could bid SAM hands every time they show up in Bastok, win, and pitch them right after if they so chose. Might make a few people unhappy, but they could.
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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:45 am

Verence wrote:I think the main thrust of our disagreement seems to be that you approach it from a crafter's personal-expenditure viewpoint, and count the wootz ore as 0 cost since it would be 'free'. Whatever it cost to purchase, in my view, it's still a 120k value item. It just seems like a bit of a waste to me to burn such a valuable item on the chance of a skillup. Granted, once purchased, what one does with an item is their business - Someone could bid SAM hands every time they show up in Bastok, win, and pitch them right after if they so chose. Might make a few people unhappy, but they could.

This is exactly why I posted in this topic in the first place, so you guys can see it from a crafters view point & I'm glad Ayv can see it from my side & you just have to look at my last post to see how its NOT a "waste" as you put it, to have a skillup item with only a 6k potential loss. You might think its not worth using points on a 120k item for the chance of skilling up, but believe me many smithers would jump at the chance.

At the end of the day both view points are exactly the same:

Salvage = save 130k material costs
Crafters = save 130k material costs

The real disagreement is that you think crafters are likely to abuse / make profit from these ores so they shouldn't be alowed to bid, whereas I'm saying its much more controllable for the sacks to see what a crafter does with it whereas the salvage peeps could be holding those ores for months i.e. much harder to see / control what they do with it & have a much higher scope for making gil.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:46 pm

Well, no.

The main reason why I'm against allowing crafters to bid Wootz at this point, if I may be blunt, is the fact that you have like 7 points Fist, and you're the only crafter in the LS who'd be bidding on Wootz. You'll probably never win a single bid anyway unless you intend on never receiving a single piece of relic considering how new you are to our linkshell. I had to say it, all of this arguing is completely and utterly moot.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:35 pm

I simply can't find any logic in what you just said. Whether I have 7 point or 70 points, I'm talking about this rule in its principle. You're basically saying to me that because you don't think I have enough points to win a bid, I shouldn't even be allowed to bid? Or I would be the only crafter bidding them against a hand full of salvagers so I shouldn't be allowed to bid? How exactly does that make sense?

My points will rise as I attend more runs, I will be able to compete for them more, some may go cheap or for the minimum bid, there may be an odd bastok run that drops 10+ ores (I've seen it happen in the past), ppl will finish their body pieces & stop bidding, lots of things can happen. Simply saying no you can't bid because you dont have enough points to win a bid, or you're the only smither in the ls or you're too new in the ls is just wrong IMO.

Anyways I've put down my points as best I could already in the thread but its your decision in the end so I won't argue this topic any further geek

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ayvaen on Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:57 pm

It's not a matter of you should or shouldn't be able to bid. I agree that in theory, it's possible that you should. I'm not sure where I fall quite honestly.

My point was that from a practical viewpoint this discussion is irrelevant, because your chances of winning any bids are low. Your attendance isn't the best, and if we institute this rule there will be a minimum bid of 3 at least. You don't have enough points to actively contend, so even if this rule was made, it would never actually be applied in your favor anytime soon. The rule will only benefit players who're willing to sacrifice their chances of obtaining relic in return for lowering the cost of Salvage Bodies (or in your proposition skilling up).

If you intend to do that, correct me. Tell me you're planning on blowing all of your points on Wootz and I'll feel differently, but I just don't think that's the case.

And you might win an ore here or there anyway. But considering at that level of skillups you average maybe 1 skillup every 4 synths, which would cost 12+ points (more than you have currently) I don't think discussing this has any practical application and is therefore counterproductive.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:24 am

Okay maybe I should have said this earlier but I haven't won any af2 or even bidded any simply because I have all the needed af2 for my 75 jobs from my previous shell (GoDvsDynamis) & I joined WMS because as you know a high % of my friends from GoD are in your ls. I have no real use for my points and as I told Veloci at the time I was removed from the roster and points removed while I was on holiday. I wasn't even bothered if I had to start again from 0 points, I only do dynamis to hang out & have fun with my friends. This atleast gives me something to use my points on.

Like I said in my last post you are just basing this on your opion that I don't have alot of points atm & that every ore will go for huge points. Yes right now my chances of winning a bid are low - but not zero. With time my points will increase, other bidders will lose points, demand for the ores may drop, prices may drop, ppl wanting ores but saving points for hot af2 items may decide not to even bid, some runs may drop lots of ores & some may go cheaper or for minimum bid etc etc theres lots of ifs & buts, the only fact is that I would be as equally prepared to spend points on this as anyone doing salvage, its only for cost reduction in both cases.

Yes skill ups are just chance, and it may seem to others that it would be a waste of points but let me just give you an example of what happened in the last 2 weeks:

With advance support & +2 from equipment, putting me +3 over the cap for imp. wootz ingots, I made a total of 20 ingots for friends, Mental & Alveen beeing the most recent, I failed 3 synths out of the lot and got 0.1 skill up total. Had I not taken advance support & used gear, I would have broken alot more synths, gotten alot more skill ups & cost alot of gil for those ppl. What I'm saying is, it works the same way for both scenarios, someone could bid big points on an ore only to fail the synth, or have a successful synth & saved themselves some nice gil towards their body. In my case I could get a skill up & it would have bin worth while, or no skill up & I would have lost some points.

Either way its all about chance, I'd rather spend my points than spend 130k gil for the ore, which is the exact same reasoning for the salvage lot. Whether they have a successful synth or whether I get a skill up or not are a totally different matter.

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Re: Rules update

Post  Verence on Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:56 am

Fist3 wrote:Anyways I've put down my points as best I could already in the thread but its your decision in the end so I won't argue this topic any further geek
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Re: Rules update

Post  Fist3 on Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:18 am

Ayvaen wrote:My point was that from a practical viewpoint this discussion is irrelevant, because your chances of winning any bids are low. Your attendance isn't the best, and if we institute this rule there will be a minimum bid of 3 at least. You don't have enough points to actively contend, so even if this rule was made, it would never actually be applied in your favor anytime soon. The rule will only benefit players who're willing to sacrifice their chances of obtaining relic in return for lowering the cost of Salvage Bodies (or in your proposition skilling up).

If you intend to do that, correct me. Tell me you're planning on blowing all of your points on Wootz and I'll feel differently, but I just don't think that's the case.

Fist3

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Re: Rules update

Post  Ash on Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:23 am

Banking seems to be the simple solution.

Less hassle for SHs to keep track of people and fairness for all members.

Ash

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Re: Rules update

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