Wootz Ore.

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Does the current system for bidding wootz ore bother you?

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Wootz Ore.

Post  Ash on Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:56 pm

Ok, let's discuss this.

Arguments that have been presented in favor of making Wootz for Salvage people only :
- It offers something to spend on to old linkshell members that don't require much anymore in terms of Relic.

Wrong, it offers something to spend points to a very small subset of members, new or old.

- WMS is about helping people achieve things they couldn't otherwise, not line pocketbooks.

Two things wrong with this argument :
1.
Current price of Wootz Ores on Lakshmi : 200k/piece.
Current price of Khroma Ores on Lakshmi : 300k/piece.

Needed for a Salvage body : 12 Wootz/24 Khroma, total : 9 600 000 gil, 7 200 000 in Khroma and 2 400 000 in Wootz.

So, 2.4M is impossible to achieve to people that already have 7.2M ?

2. Giving an item worth a monetary sum to someone is always lining that person's pocketbook.
Not spending currency and gaining currency is the same thing, the person gets richer.


Arguments against :

- Given that logically there's no difference between an item and its worth in gil, it's just fair to allow everyone to achieve the same.

The only justification to this "fear" that Wootz will be sold is if you suspect some members to RMT, but if that's the case other measures than this should be taken.

- Salvage bodies aren't the end-all be-all items they're presented as.
Some are nice, sure, but they're far from being the only worthwhile items.

Is a Salvage body going to help the LS more than any other expensive item ? Probably not.

- Access to Salvage isn't constant. NA=a few LSes. EU=SOL.
This is a Dynamis-only LS, it shouldn't favor people taking part to an event.
Although I dislike analogies, I'll illustrate this point with one : should a ZNM-only LS give Cerberus Hides from Sarameya unilaterally to Einherjar-dwellers that happen to have Phantasmal Abjuration : Body ? No, they shouldn't.

The analogy isn't perfect, I know. No analogy can be.

- Bidding Wootz to Salvagers only is like telling the linkshell members "right, you're all going to farm for Verence and Muirnin today".
That's what this is : we're out there gathering money items for them.
I don't mind helping someone to farm something they need, but when it reaches the point of farming gil for someone else without even agreeing to it (the rules changed long after most of us were in the LS), it's frankly insulting.

- Rules like that really undermine the dedication of people, as per the above reason.
On a personal level, I would've left WMS long ago if I was only in it for gain and items but still I kept showing up every sunday. This was a family.
With this rule the LS changed into an abusive family, forcing my hand in helping the richer members of the LS get even richer. Kinda hard to take it with a smile.

Ever since the rule was introduced, my mindset towards the LS completely changed, I'm sure I'm not the only one. NOW I approach it in terms of gain and items only, because the atmosphere was shaped to just that.


Verence and Muirnin have been in the shell forever, and I have no personal qualms with them.
Maybe they do deserve to have a hand-out from the LS after all this time. Maybe.
But we were never given to choice to help them, it's been imposed on us.

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Verence on Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:30 pm

http://wemeleestatues.darkbb.com/general-chat-f10/rules-update-t65.htm

Please read this before posting here. We've been over much of this in the past and seeing what's been said already will help this from just turning into an endless rehash. As for myself, I've views I'll save until I've time to think a bit and have fuller access to my PC.

For the time being however, I resent this issue being posed as one about Muirnin and I. We've done nothing but follow the rules set up by the linkshell and I find your statement both unwelcome and inappropriate. If not us, you may be assured it would have been someone else. I see no animosity towards Tryscut nor Disguise, despite them having bid Wootz when Muirnin and I did.
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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Xenedra on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:10 pm

- It offers something to spend on to old linkshell members that don't require much anymore in terms of Relic.

Wrong, it offers something to spend points to a very small subset of members, new or old.

I would say both of those statements are correct. It does offers something to spend points on for members that don't require much anymore in terms of relic AND, at this time, this group is a fairly small subset.

- WMS is about helping people achieve things they couldn't otherwise, not line pocketbooks.

Two things wrong with this argument :
1.
Current price of Wootz Ores on Lakshmi : 200k/piece.
Current price of Khroma Ores on Lakshmi : 300k/piece.

Needed for a Salvage body : 12 Wootz/24 Khroma, total : 9 600 000 gil, 7 200 000 in Khroma and 2 400 000 in Wootz.

So, 2.4M is impossible to achieve to people that already have 7.2M ?

I don't really agree with you here. We all know it's fairly difficult to make money in this game. It's time intensive and some of us don't really have that time. Even a little boost here and there helps along the way to a decently difficult goal, especially if you're poor. There are also other ways to acquire khroma without purchasing it. You can mine it, though it's VERY rare (I only got 2 from mining) or you can ISNM for it. So really, you don't have to have that other 7.2mil because you don't necessarily have to buy the khroma ore either. I think the more options open for members to cut down costs, the better, especially since the ingots are slowly, but consistently rising. 200k and 300k are no sum to laugh at.

2. Giving an item worth a monetary sum to someone is always lining that person's pocketbook.
Not spending currency and gaining currency is the same thing, the person gets richer.

Arguments against :

- Given that logically there's no difference between an item and its worth in gil, it's just fair to allow everyone to achieve the same.

The only justification to this "fear" that Wootz will be sold is if you suspect some members to RMT, but if that's the case other measures than this should be taken.

I feel like that's all addressing the same topic, so I jammed it together : P. I think the difference in the item and the gil here is the end product and how much it would cost. Acquiring ore from the LS does make the Salvage body cheaper for the person getting it. It's very similar to sponsorship in that the sponsor pays for a run to get super discounted currency. The different there is that instead of paying for our run, the person buying the wootz is paying in points. The only way this really benefits other members is that the people with gobs of points spend them and give people with less points a chance at items. One could argue, of course, that the people bidding on wootz don't have much, if anything, left that they want/need in the way of relic. That may be true in some cases, but points are a direct result of time spent for the linkshell. If you've given your time to the LS, you ought to be allowed to bid on something to show for it. And since everyone spends their time on the shell, everyone ought to be allowed to bid? But what if we take into account limitations like being unable to bid on a piece you aren't of the appropriate level for? The limitation of using the wootz ore on Salvage bodies is similar, in my opinion.

However, though it's been not-so-pleasantly discussed before and dismissed, I'm am open to changing the limitations on wootz ore bidding.

- Salvage bodies aren't the end-all be-all items they're presented as.
Some are nice, sure, but they're far from being the only worthwhile items.

Is a Salvage body going to help the LS more than any other expensive item ? Probably not.

In some situations yes, in others, no. I can't really disagree with you there. The point, to me, isn't how much the item benefits the LS as much as the idea that as friends, we ought to *want* to help others with hefty goals.

- Access to Salvage isn't constant. NA=a few LSes. EU=SOL.

Access to Salvage isn't constant? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

This is a Dynamis-only LS, it shouldn't favor people taking part to an event.

Although I dislike analogies, I'll illustrate this point with one : should a ZNM-only LS give Cerberus Hides from Sarameya unilaterally to Einherjar-dwellers that happen to have Phantasmal Abjuration : Body ? No, they shouldn't.

The analogy isn't perfect, I know. No analogy can be.

This I do somewhat agree with. Our Dynamis shell doesn't owe anything to it's members doing Salvage. I had hoped, however, that we would all WANT to help the members working toward Salvage bodies.

- Bidding Wootz to Salvagers only is like telling the linkshell members "right, you're all going to farm for Verence and Muirnin today".
That's what this is : we're out there gathering money items for them.
I don't mind helping someone to farm something they need, but when it reaches the point of farming gil for someone else without even agreeing to it (the rules changed long after most of us were in the LS), it's frankly insulting.

I'm sorry you feel insulted. Again, I've said this a few times now : P, but I'd hoped we'd all be willing to add wootz to the list of things we're working for for each other. Other items on said list include relic and currency. Every time, from now on, that Mental sponsors a run, I'm basically saying the same thing to you: "We're farming for Mental today." I'm quite happy to farm for Mental, I'd like to see my friend succeed. Does reinstated sponsorship bother you? (A little off topic, yes, but I'm honestly curious (/ ' '). I hope using you as an example didn't offend you, Menty!)

- Rules like that really undermine the dedication of people, as per the above reason.
On a personal level, I would've left WMS long ago if I was only in it for gain and items but still I kept showing up every sunday. This was a family.
With this rule the LS changed into an abusive family, forcing my hand in helping the richer members of the LS get even richer. Kinda hard to take it with a smile.

Ever since the rule was introduced, my mindset towards the LS completely changed, I'm sure I'm not the only one. NOW I approach it in terms of gain and items only, because the atmosphere was shaped to just that.

I'm sorry you feel that way, maybe you have a valid point in some aspects, but really, an abusive family? Has WMS really been that bad to you? We're so lenient here at times it threatens the success of our Dynamis runs. It saddens me to hear that you find "the atmosphere" to be thus, I had hoped with the reinstatement of sponsorship, a new camaraderie based on a common goal would emerge.

Verence and Muirnin have been in the shell forever, and I have no personal qualms with them.
Maybe they do deserve to have a hand-out from the LS after all this time. Maybe.
But we were never given to choice to help them, it's been imposed on us.

The wootz system isn't just for Verence and Muirnin, though, you know? It's for all people who do Salvage, whether you're in a consistent group, or you do a lot of pick ups, or whatever. If you meet the requirements, you can bid. Maybe the requirements should be reconsidered? Maybe 1/3 body pieces instead of 2/3? Maybe a higher base bid value? Perhaps we should come up with a mini sponsorship system for wootz drops so that the LS more directly benefits from giving wootz to those going for Salvage pieces (stolen suggestion). Or we could just sell them at a lower cost to members.

I'm not against modifying the rules or listening to opinions, especially now that we basically have a whole new set of SHs with probably very different opinions. Really what I'm most interested in is using LS assets to benefit LS members. I agreed with the wootz decision at the time because it seemed the most direct way to get people who needed something the item that they were after. I don't disagree with keeping it as is now, but if a majority of members feels cheated by the rule, let's change it so that we can get more people comfortable with it.

Edit: I was going to ask for people to simply say whether the rule bothered them or not, but I think I'm going to add a poll.

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Ryeshinyih on Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:27 pm

well i voted it doesn't bother me`at all but i feel i need to explain that answer just slightly.

i have no problem with the way the rule currently is. i think it is a great idea to help out htose who are working to such an expensive goal.

I also would have no problem if you SH's wanted to change the rule slightly to help out more people such as making it available for bid for people with 1/3 pieces.

something i would have a problem with is opening bidding up to all. as far as i know this shell was never established to make gil for its members and i think it would be silly to start now.

the only other comment ill make on this is i can understand this statement:

Access to Salvage isn't constant. NA=a few LSes. EU=SOL.

yes there are more salvage ls's on lakshmi that run in NA primetime than during EU primetime. and i can understand the general frustration here because i myself work during NA primetime, that is part of the reason i joined WMS. it works with my time schedule. but i don't think this should be in any way considered as to how we distribute wootz.

it is unfortunate that some people do not have a salvage ls (myself included) and so will not be able to benefit from bidding off these ores, but i am happy to see it going to help those that are working to get those body pieces.

-Rye

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Misneach on Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:46 pm

I also have no problem with this rule for the exact reason xene suggested... I'd like to see members of this ls achieve great things... be they relic, salvage bodies or even relic weapons!

I personally would love a salvage body, I attend salvage runs twice a week. However I have enough sense to know its something that I can't realistic consider at the min as I'll never have enough gil ^^. Despite this I don't see why we shouldn't encourage those who do have the dedication to succeed? Those that do and have bid on the ores have more points than sense which proves not only their long standing commitment to the shell but the quality they are of players too to remain in a shell that they clearly don't need items from and have accumulated points in. I personally know nothing more of these players than I see them every Sunday might I add Smile

So less bickering and more support! Who knows perhaps in the future it'll be nice to avail of this rule when we try for salvage pieces ourselves.

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Verence on Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:51 pm

I appreciate that wall-o'-text is not at all fun to read. I'm guilty of saying "Oh god, textwall" and skimming myself at times. If you'd rather not read all this but want to know what I said, skip to the Conclusion.

There are opinions back and forth and honestly I can see merit to both sides. This post's primary goal is simply to add some info for people to base their own decisions around; In the process I'll probably end up sharing a bit of my own. All data used here is drawn from the post drop rate patch info in this thread, covering a period of 5 months and 20 parses. I do not claim the trends evident in this time period will continue exactly as they have; I only intend this to be illustrative of what has already happened to suggest what the future may hold. Let's start with a few facts.

In this time period, 23 wootz ores dropped. At 200k each, this represents 4.6m at current market value and 138 points, or 2 years and 10 months of attendance (barring Shadow Lord runs). 4,600,000 gil over the course of 20 runs equates to an average of 230,000g generated per run. If we cull the Dreamland runs, this becomes 4,600,000 gil over the course of 15 runs, or 306,667g on average. The reason for this distinction will become clear later.
Source

During this time, 20 hourglasses were purchased, representing 10m gil, 7.5m gil if we selectively choose the 15 non-Dreamland Dynamises (henceforth ND). This generated 38,449,000g and 28,449,000g "profit" in currency value. 35,622,000g generated and 28,122,000g "profit" for ND. This gives us 1,422,450g average expected profit for run total, 1,874,800g average expected profit per run ND.
Source

It seems like sponsors are going to stick with ND since the profit margin is far higher, so let's just do a quick ND recap:
  • ~307k/run average generated wootz value
  • ~1.9m/run average generated currency value
Sponsoring would have generated over 6x the average value per run of wootz.

The response to sponsorship has been overwhelmingly positive. Everyone seems charged and ready to support our members in achieving the ultimate Dynamis goal. Yet when it comes to Wootz, people are not so enthusiastic. Why is this? If wootz bidding is dipping into the tip jar, sponsorship is bank robbery!

Personally, I see no difference between the two. Each represents one member expending something they have earned by spending their time (gil or points; if it helps, you can think of attendance as 'farming points') to achieve a goal that they could attain on their own through purely monetary means, but can't due to the steep costs incurred. Currency comes only from Dynamis, wootz ore comes only from Dynamis. Both represent significant investment of the member hoping to profit - 500k for a glass, 6 points (1 months of attendance) for an ore. Aegis costs 130m at current market currency prices, which at the calculated average profit/run means 70 runs (35m spent on glasses). Salvage body requires 12 ores, or 72 points (1 years of attendance).
Source

Conclusion:
The question is wether or not we as a linkshell are resolved to help each other. If anything, sponsorship is far more 'unfair'! It exclusively focuses on one person for up to 70 runs at far greater profit than bidding wootz ore, while those bidding wootz stand to lose up to 72 runs of attendance for less gain. Yet people will support sponsorship and not wootz bidding? To be consistent in your views, you cannot support one but condemn the other. I personally am fully prepared to support our sponsors in their endeavors, and am glad that our linkshell provides lesser opportunities to others as well.
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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Ash on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:45 am

First off, to Verence: I only named Muirnin & yourself because you were the only 2 I remembered having benefitted from this system, it was not a mark of animosity.
I just didn't remember Disguise and Tryscut having bid Wootz.

Second, to everyone: Wall'o'text incoming Razz.

Xenedra wrote:Every time, from now on, that Mental sponsors a run, I'm basically saying the same thing to you: "We're farming for Mental today." I'm quite happy to farm for Mental, I'd like to see my friend succeed. Does reinstated sponsorship bother you?t.

No, it does not. I've always supported Sabriel/Mental/Soujirou/Ayvaen in their attempts at Relic Weapons.
But, although it does bear a ressemblance to this system (in that the sponsor/Wootz bidder does gain financial aid from the LS), there are major differences:

1. Agreement.
Sponsorship has been a practice of this LS for ages, when you join you agree to it.
Wootz bidding has been introduced years after the LS' creation, and enforced upon members with no choice whatsoever.

Maybe I'm a bit unique in that, but when my hand is being forced, any desire I might've had in helping is gone. Had I been asked "do you agree on helping X getting a Salvage body", I might've said yes, might've said no.
Instead, it's been "This is how it is. Don't like it ? The door is over there.", and that always rubs me the wrong way.

2. Involvment of other events.
Once again, this is a Dynamis-only LS. Why discriminate some of the rewards to those that are part of other linkshells for other events ?

3. Access restriction.
To sponsor, you aren't required to take part in X event, having obtained X drops from it and so on.
To bid Wootz, you are.

I'm not against bidding Wootz as a whole, I'd just like fairness: everyone being able to bid. Salvage upgraders aren't the only ones with more points than they know what to do with.

A mini-sponsorship system (with appropriate restrictions to prevent abuse) could be interesting, yes.
See lower for a way it might work*.

4. Practicality.
You know this better than any of us, selling currency takes forever and is a major pain in the ass, as a matter of fact it's one of the major reasons why I never want to be a SH in a Dynamis LS.
If you can find a deal with someone to sponsor for said currency, good (under the reservations explicited in 1., 2. and 3.).
Letting Wootz be bidded by everyone does not require excess effort from either SHs nor members.

Practicality might seems like a minor argument (and it is, to some extent), but it does prevent some transactions from happening in-game: e.g. CP/IS/AN : everyone could convert those into gil, but the majority of people doesn't. Why ? Because it's not practical at all to acquire 157861 Mercernary's Hachimaki (or whatever) and then sell them off.

5. Testament to the LS' quality.
A Relic Weapon shines glory on WMS.
A Marduk's Jubbah only does so for the Salvage LS, regardless of Imperial Wootz Ingots coming from the AH, ISNMs or favorable deals in Dynamis or Einherjar.

Point 2. and 5. majorly tie into each other, and explain how different both processes are:
- In getting a Relic Weapon (or Shield, as is the case Razz), we're accomplishing something as a LS.
- In dealing with Wootz, we're only handing gil to someone. The way we do so is either fair (equal access to everyone regardless of usage) or not (current).


Xenedra wrote:But what if we take into account limitations like being unable to bid on a piece you aren't of the appropriate level for? The limitation of using the wootz ore on Salvage bodies is similar, in my opinion.
Let's not be silly, here.
Relic armor has no market value, Wootz does.
Relic armor has job and level requirements, Wootz does not. They're nothing alike.


Xenedra wrote:Our Dynamis shell doesn't owe anything to it's members doing Salvage. I had hoped, however, that we would all WANT to help the members working toward Salvage bodies.

Well, like I said above, having my hand forced stripped any desire to help from me.
It's like setting up a charity (choice) vs a tax system (no choice, bend over and take it).
Both will have a very different reception, trust me Razz.

Also, it's hard for the poor to care for the rich's money.
Whether they mine the Khroma or buy it on AH, they have to gather 7M+ of gil (or gil-worth which is 100% equivalent, I think you have trouble with that concept), and asking for people who will never see 7M in today's gil (converted back to "christmas inflation" gil, it'd be ~120M) to want to help the body upgraders is like asking the man under the bridge to donate to the "Save Matt Damon" fund. (hyperbole mine Razz)



*Suggested limitations:
- open to everyone.
- can only sponsor in that way a limited number of times.
- requires both a point expenditure (say 30 or more) and to provide the hourglass, in returns can obtain all Wootz, for any use.
- This is only a rough layout, thought up in 30s, there are probably holes in it Razz.

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Sphinx on Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:56 pm

I would like to point out Ashmade, in regards to all you say about forcing your hand here, that this is the first time you raise grievances over the matter when people are using the system to buy wootz.
I can't remember you arguing the system before when wootz were bid. I can't recall you arguing it for these weeks when we have been told that "wootz will be bid soon", nor can I recall you arguing it when the rule was being discussed and implemented.

Besides that though the rule has been voted for and accepted - and looking at the voting of this poll right here the vast majority seems to have little against it. It does seem to me that the majority of the linkshell has no problems with wootz bidding as it is - and nor have you had until the point the wootz was actually being bid. And there not even the first time, but when it was bid the second time.

Frankly I don't see it as the "hands of the ls members being forced" when in a vote people seem to be for the idea, not against it. And if I personally preferred the system as it is now, would you force my hand the other way? Point being the majority agree with the rule and have. People haven't argued until this day, and they have known the day to be coming, they have seen the day happen before.
So what I'd care to know is, why has this not been brought up sooner if it concerns people that much?


Last edited by Sphinx on Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling, again)

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Xenedra on Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:51 pm

1. Agreement.
Sponsorship has been a practice of this LS for ages, when you join you agree to it.
Wootz bidding has been introduced years after the LS' creation, and enforced upon members with no choice whatsoever.

Sponsorship was, until recently, completely dispelled from the linkshell. I didn't ask anyone (with the exception of the SHs) if I could bring it back, I just did. Those that have joined in the past year, never agreed to sponsorship. Now, sponsorship IS a practice most dynamis shells take part in. Anything having to deal with wootz is new.

4. Practicality.
You know this better than any of us, selling currency takes forever and is a major pain in the ass, as a matter of fact it's one of the major reasons why I never want to be a SH in a Dynamis LS.
If you can find a deal with someone to sponsor for said currency, good (under the reservations explicited in 1., 2. and 3.).
Letting Wootz be bidded by everyone does not require excess effort from either SHs nor members.

The frequency with which currency sells is supremely variable. Often times I can sell it the day I get it, sometimes it can take a week or 2. There are even times when I don't have any and I have people come to me asking for it. The only "pain in the ass" selling currency even gave me was limiting my inventory, moving the currency itself? Not difficult. As you said, this argument isn't really necessary.

5. Testament to the LS' quality.
A Relic Weapon shines glory on WMS.
A Marduk's Jubbah only does so for the Salvage LS, regardless of Imperial Wootz Ingots coming from the AH, ISNMs or favorable deals in Dynamis or Einherjar.

That's a fairly good point, both are still helping out friends though.


2. Involvment of other events.
Once again, this is a Dynamis-only LS. Why discriminate some of the rewards to those that are part of other linkshells for other events?

3. Access restriction.
To sponsor, you aren't required to take part in X event, having obtained X drops from it and so on.
To bid Wootz, you are.

I'm not against bidding Wootz as a whole, I'd just like fairness: everyone being able to bid. Salvage upgraders aren't the only ones with more points than they know what to do with.

A mini-sponsorship system (with appropriate restrictions to prevent abuse) could be interesting, yes.
See lower for a way it might work*.

All true, but again, not things I find terrible important as long as a majority are ok with it. You, at the very least are not, we're slowly seeing how everyone else feels about it.

Point 2. and 5. majorly tie into each other, and explain how different both processes are:
- In getting a Relic Weapon (or Shield, as is the case Razz), we're accomplishing something as a LS.
- In dealing with Wootz, we're only handing gil to someone. The way we do so is either fair (equal access to everyone regardless of usage) or not (current).

Xenedra wrote:But what if we take into account limitations like being unable to bid on a piece you aren't of the appropriate level for? The limitation of using the wootz ore on Salvage bodies is similar, in my opinion.

Let's not be silly, here.
Relic armor has no market value, Wootz does.
Relic armor has job and level requirements, Wootz does not. They're nothing alike.

Also, it's hard for the poor to care for the rich's money.
Whether they mine the Khroma or buy it on AH, they have to gather 7M+ of gil (or gil-worth which is 100% equivalent, I think you have trouble with that concept), and asking for people who will never see 7M in today's gil (converted back to "christmas inflation" gil, it'd be ~120M) to want to help the body upgraders is like asking the man under the bridge to donate to the "Save Matt Damon" fund. (hyperbole mine Razz)

As for "having trouble with the concept," I can only say that it's a difference of opinion. It's my opinion that an item is an item is a FREE item if it's farmed and used, never having been transfered into a monetary value.

*Suggested limitations:
- open to everyone.
- can only sponsor in that way a limited number of times.
- requires both a point expenditure (say 30 or more) and to provide the hourglass, in returns can obtain all Wootz, for any use.
- This is only a rough layout, thought up in 30s, there are probably holes in it Razz.

Depending on how much wootz drop, providing and/or splitting an hourglass with the sponsor could be fair enough. I don't want to open bidding up to everyone because I don't want people to bid the wootz just to make money off of them. The difference to me is making money versus saving money.


Excuse me if this seems a bit pieced together, it is. I'm tired, on supah medication and too brain dead to organize it better >.>

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Verence on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:33 pm

Once again, Conclusion at the bottom. I'll try to keep the format of my prior post and start with facts then transition to opinions, though this time around I've more opinions than facts.

Ash wrote:1. Agreement.
Sponsorship has been a practice of this LS for ages, when you join you agree to it.
Wootz bidding has been introduced years after the LS' creation, and enforced upon members with no choice whatsoever.
We have not had a sponsorship system in quite a while. Many new members have joined since it was abolished, and sponsorship was sprung just as suddenly and choicelessly upon them as wootz was upon longer-term members. Prior to February 8th, there was absolutely no mention of sponsorship whatsoever in the rules listing. Many of our current members did not agree to sponsorship upon joining, yet none have complained. If any DO have complaints, I encourage them to speak out so that we may have a fuller understanding of this matter, though perhaps in another thread so as not to clutter this one.


Ash wrote:3. Access restriction.
To sponsor, you aren't required to take part in X event, having obtained X drops from it and so on.
To bid Wootz, you are.

I'm not against bidding Wootz as a whole, I'd just like fairness: everyone being able to bid. Salvage upgraders aren't the only ones with more points than they know what to do with.
Ash wrote:In dealing with Wootz, we're only handing gil to someone. The way we do so is either fair (equal access to everyone regardless of usage) or not (current).
Unfortunately, 'fairness' is a slippery beast and entirely a matter of perspective. Should two people receiving an inheritance receive a 50/50 split to make it fair? Or is this unfair to the son who steadfastly stayed with and supported his father to the end, as opposed to the prodigal? There are no easy answers when it comes to being fair.

As for access restrictions, sponsorship is far more access-restricted than wootz bidding. They are required to have the support of the linkshell and to acquire permission from the SH's. There can only be a very limited number at any given time and furthermore, they are bound to consistently turn up the funds to sponsor in a timely manner. The currency they receive is not wholly their own, and they are beholden to the LS for its management. The requirements and demands of a sponsor far exceed those of a wootz ore bidder, yet we are alright with that.

Even so, the exact details of Wootz bidding are not set in stone. Xenedra has said she is open to suggestions. It's foreclosure to argue based upon the limitations of Wootz bidding when they may be subject to change.


Ash wrote:2. Involvment of other events.
Once again, this is a Dynamis-only LS. Why discriminate some of the rewards to those that are part of other linkshells for other events ?
Members have points and the ability to use them to further their characters. Is the goal of this linkshell to do Dynamis, or is the goal of this linkshell to gear its members - with items that drop from Dynamis? As it so happens, Wootz is an item that would gear our members and drops from Dynamis.

'Access restriction' serves as a control. Allowing anyone to bid wootz, regardless of Salvage affiliation or gear acquired, would be like allowing someone without any Dynamis flags to sponsor a relic weapon. Why would we allow that when they don't have the attestation, the fragment, the necropsyche, nor the means to acquire them? Stick around in our LS long enough and you'll probably get access but that doesn't change the core point - It doesn't matter which shell they do it in; they need to get themselves into a position to actually use what they're asking for first.


Ash wrote:4. Practicality.
You know this better than any of us, selling currency takes forever and is a major pain in the ass, as a matter of fact it's one of the major reasons why I never want to be a SH in a Dynamis LS.
If you can find a deal with someone to sponsor for said currency, good (under the reservations explicited in 1., 2. and 3.).
Selling currency never entered the discussion. I presented my argument in terms of VALUE, not actual gil in the bank. Ease of sale, as far as I am concerned, has absolutely no bearing on matters.

Ash wrote:Letting Wootz be bidded by everyone does not require excess effort from either SHs nor members.
Do you then suggest we ignore what is potentially beneficial in the name of what is easy? It is not easy to take attendance, nor to conduct bids, nor to track sponsorship currency either.


Ash wrote:5. Testament to the LS' quality.
A Relic Weapon shines glory on WMS.
A Marduk's Jubbah only does so for the Salvage LS, regardless of Imperial Wootz Ingots coming from the AH, ISNMs or favorable deals in Dynamis or Einherjar.
Is that really true? Or is that because most Dynamis LS's don't have a wootz bidding system? I've never heard of one in another LS. Why can't WMS be known for its Salvage bodies? Mental has one. It reflects well upon us and he didn't even get a single wootz from the LS. How much more will it be to our benefit when more members begin showing up in Ares, Morrigan, Skadi and the like because of us?

LS's are not remembered for making money. They are remembered for gearing members. Most of the truly awesome items in this game are R/EX. It is my opinion that Salvage gear does not represent wealth as it is 'locked' and that money, once spent, will NEVER be retrievable, unlike non R/EX gear. The process from wootz bidding to Salvage armor at no step along the process converts to liquid gil, and at the end of that process does not represent actual gil.

Ash wrote:Relic armor has no market value, Wootz does.
Relic armor has job and level requirements, Wootz does not. They're nothing alike.
This, to me, is exactly like relic armor in one respect - You spend your LS points on something that cannot be converted to gil (Wootz is technically sellable but you're cruising for a boot if you bid then sell wootz). The end result is R/EX armor with job and level requirements.


Ash wrote:Also, it's hard for the poor to care for the rich's money.
You make it sound as though everyone aiming for salvage armor is some fat cat Jangula who's rolling in dough. It's through hard work and dedication one completes Salvage armor, not through magically 'being rich'. You suggest a 'rich vs. poor' dichotomy that I simply don't see. This is not a Marxist class struggle and Salvagers are not the bourgeoisie. Besides, this strikes me as entirely besides the point. What correlation is there between WMS point total and pocketbook depth? Are all of those with high point values rich by association?

Show me someone with a newly completed Salvage body and I will show you someone who is quite likely broke, perhaps even in debt if they got excited one or two ingots away from the goal and borrowed from friends. All that money they just spent is now locked, and they'll never see one gil of it again. This doesn't really sound like the rich getting richer to me.

Conclusion:
In the end, I see it as a matter of consistency. Either we are dedicated to helping gear our members by the use of gil-valued items or we are not. To choose anything in between is to compromise professed LS values as we pick and choose when we'll adhere to them and when we won't.


Last edited by Verence on Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Verence on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:57 pm

I apologize for the double post, but I thought that addressing Ash's proposal was a rather separate matter and didn't wish to clutter the flow of my former post.

Wootz sponsorship has been proposed, but I see a few flaws with the idea.

First, this would clash with relic sponsors. What if a relic sponsor wanted to buy the glass for Beaucedine or Bastok and was told he couldn't, someone was sponsoring wootz? This is an unnecessary and avoidable conflict of interests. Well, that's alright then. What if we move to a points-only sponsorship?

This also I can't agree with. You are asking members to gamble their points on an uncertain return. Points for relic are not deducted at the time of a bid, they are deducted at the time of a drop. Relic sponsors at least have the security of a virtually guaranteed profit if they choose their zones wisely. As shown here, wootz drop rates are quite variable and anything but guaranteed. This also further undermines actual hourglass-purchase sponsorship as it would take at least 3 wootz to defray the cost of an hourglass and that isn't likely to happen, except for in Bastok. Okay, so what if we only charge a per-drop price on sponsored runs?

How is this any different from bidding, aside from locking out everyone who's not sponsoring? That sounds pretty unfair to me. Not to mention that last time we did Bastok, 14 ores dropped. You only need 12 for a body, what happens to the overflow? Does the sponsor keep them? That's two more than he needs, he's just lining his pockets! Do we bid them? I thought we were trying to get away from that system! The sponsor walks away with a completed body and all other interested parties are out in the cold, despite willingness and ability to spend points on the wootz. And when's the next time Bastok will happen? Not for a while, at the least.

There seems to me to be too many problems with a sponsorship system, so I cannot agree to the proposal. Personally, I see no serious problems with the current system and would rather keep things as they are, but in the interest of being constructive I can see a somewhat reasonable alternative.

Purchase:
Wootz ores are not bid, they are purchased. They can be distributed evenly among interested qualifying parties or randomed for.

I admit, it's rather weak. I'd prefer to stick with things as they are now.
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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Ash on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:36 am

Verence, I know you understand economy.
You've proven you understood giving out Wootz to someone was 100% competely and entirely (emphasis mine) equivalent to giving gil to someone, regardless of the usage made of it later.

So why dance around ?
Yes, a Salvage body, once obtained, cannot be refunded. You & I both know that's irrelevant, as you had the gil prior to obtaining it.
I knew you would adamantly defend the system, that's something the other thread has shown (and Garg has indepedently seen it as well) : you're quite intelligent but you have absolutely no integrity and thus you'll defend anything that profits you, even if you know it logically makes no sense.

I knew you'd use any method to confuse the issue, which is in fact quite simple : this LS currently distributes gil to a specific subset of members based on an arbitraty criterion.

You also understand that the core of the issue is the selection of the "qualifying parties" and not the distribution method among said "qualifying parties", so your double post was quite besides the point.

Verence wrote:
What correlation is there between WMS point total and pocketbook depth? Are all of those with high point values rich by association?

No, but those that can afford 24 Khroma Ore are rich.

Just in case you genuinely didn't understand my request (which is impossible given your first reply), I'm not asking for Wootz bidding to be abolished, I'm asking for it to be open to all members, regardless of using Wootz to sell or upgrade Salvage bodies.

Verence wrote:Unfortunately, 'fairness' is a slippery beast and entirely a matter of perspective. Should two people receiving an inheritance receive a 50/50 split to make it fair? Or is this unfair to the son who steadfastly stayed with and supported his father to the end, as opposed to the prodigal? There are no easy answers when it comes to being fair.

Right. See, that analogy actually helps my case.
I'm not asking for Wootz to be given to "the prodigal" but to the dedicated, whether they can ever afford 24 Khroma Ore or not.
My request isn't to get Wootz free of points, but rather to be allowed, along everyone else, to bid points on them.


Obviously, 7M+ isn't "Jangula-rich", but it's still a lot of gil, more than many players will ever see.

Verence wrote:Either we are dedicated to helping gear our members by the use of gil-valued items or we are not. To choose anything in between is to compromise professed LS values as we pick and choose when we'll adhere to them and when we won't.

Bidder A bids Wootz, uses it for a Salvage body. He's been geared up by the LS.
Bidder B bids Wootz, sells it on the AH and buys gear. He's been geared up by the LS.

Introducing a difference between case A or B shows either :
- a poor understanding of economics/low IQ. Whether you sell it or not, Wootz=gil ! There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between them.
- deliberate bias/lack of integrity. Giving gil to Salvage upgraders only matches quite precisely the definition of a bias.

My main concern is that the past and current SHs of this LS are all quite intelligent, so it has to be the latter case.



To Xenedra :
1. What happens to Wootz if/when we run out of Salvage upgraders ?
Hoard it forever until someone meeting the requirement steps up (if ever) ?
THEN, open bid to everyone ?

2. Saving money and making money is exactly the same. This is not opinion, it's an economy fact.
I cannot stress this enough.
Practicality of conversion is the only thing that could get in the way of that fact.

And given that fact, Wootz being reserved to Salvage upgraders is objectively unfair.

What the majority thinks has little bearing on this. If the majority said trees were blue, they'd still be wrong.
Democracy does not apply to facts, only political decisions.

3. To your point about helping friends : once again, I was more than happy to help friends obtain Relic, that's the reason I remained in the LS long after obtaining the last useful drop I wanted (Sorcerer's Petasos, december 2007).
I'm more than happy to help friends farm or join a Salvage run at 3AM asking for no reward... when those friends ask for the help.
Not when they dictate I help.

The sponsorship analogy, if the rules were altered (I thought we just didn't have a sponsor but it was still applicable) after some people joined the LS, it is indeed a similar case.
But it's up to them to open discussion about it, not me (in a different thread, please) ; If they're OK with it, who am I to say they shouldn't be ?

Sphinx wrote:
I would like to point out Ashmade, in regards to all you say about forcing your hand here, that this is the first time you raise grievances over the matter when people are using the system to buy wootz.
I can't remember you arguing the system before when wootz were bid. I can't recall you arguing it for these weeks when we have been told that "wootz will be bid soon", nor can I recall you arguing it when the rule was being discussed and implemented.
So when was the exact appropriate time ?

Mention a distribution system makes no sense in LS chat just before bids/when announce, you get told it's not the time.
Make a post on the forums after receiving confirmation that the new SH team will maintain the previously established rules and it's "too late".

I was actually arguing when it was implemented, and so were others.
Maybe you weren't present at the time, but before the previous thread about the rule, there was an argument in /l, at the end of which Ayv declared discussion was useless and the rule wouldn't change.
So there was little point to posting in the first thread.
A change of SH team was a chance to restore fairness.

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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Verence on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm

I was in the middle of typing a reply, but I realized that at this point I feel that this discussion has degraded from a discussion of ideas to simple contradiction and personal assaults. My ideas have been stated and in the end, this discussion is purely a matter of opinion. I confess a little confusion at your ready willingness to make personal attacks in what was I thought an open debate of views, Ash. I also do not appreciate your attempts to twist what I have clearly stated into what I did not. I no longer feel this discussion serves a proper nor useful purpose, and wish to take this opportunity to respectfully step out.
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Re: Wootz Ore.

Post  Xenedra on Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:11 am

To Xenedra :
1. What happens to Wootz if/when we run out of Salvage upgraders ?
Hoard it forever until someone meeting the requirement steps up (if ever) ?
THEN, open bid to everyone ?

Wootz would be collected and sold by the LS bank to add to run funds.

What the majority thinks has little bearing on this. If the majority said trees were blue, they'd still be wrong.
Democracy does not apply to facts, only political decisions.

What I always meant in were "what the majority thinks" applies, is to being willing to consider a new practice involving the bidding off of wootz to members. At this time, the poll up-top there shows me that most people aren't bothered by the practice. Arguments presented here do have me questioning the fairness of it though.

At this time, while you're all welcome to continue discussing this rule, I'd like to call this discussion closed and move the decision making process into the sackholder forums.

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FYI

Post  Disguise on Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:54 pm

I did bid on one or two ores after last weeks run, however I also retracted my bid as soon as I seen Muirnin bidding on all of them, I did not receive any wootz ores at all or bid after the second ore bid. I understand it may help out some members with accumulated points, however I passed on any item to many various people and vice versa, because I respect what they have done for the shell. I also believed they earned their points but the question is to ask if this is a fair rule... I say this because i dont expect everyone to hold the same views. I'm sure the sacks are trying to appease everyone, so to offer the opportunity to acquire a sellable item for minimum -6 dkp points is somewhat justifiable imo. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Wootz Ore.

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